Born to the Forge

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Throning_Karma
Throning_Karma's picture
Born to the Forge

It is my understanding that one cannot take an edge (like Half-Blood) to take an edge that gives access to another edge (like Southborn to get Heart of Stone). Am I correct in that assumtion/understanding???

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

You can use an edge like that to take an edge which you normally couldn't.  That said; if there isn't a good reason for it, or if it truly doesn't make sense for the character, then that instance isn't allowed. GM's are required to check these things themselves which is why all such edges are up for GM approval. For example, Half-Blood only works for goblinesh characters, and only for human edges. After taking half-blood the character is half-human. You shouldn't allow the character to just conglomerate edges from every race they can because they can (Southborn, Half-Blood, Mixed Bloodlines, etc.... should make sense lore-wise, and if someone is just trying to power play then they should be told no).

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Throning_Karma
Throning_Karma's picture

So no Born to the Forge for an Alakar Druid? Darn!

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity.

Throning_Karma
Throning_Karma's picture

What about the Goblinesh edges (Half-Blood and Mixed Bloodlines) can they be taken together? to make a half Orc human with ogre and goblin blood???

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Technically, yes.  But it's up to the GM as to whether each and every instance of those is allowed, and if the character is taken to a new table the new GM has say too.  If a GM ever says no you continue with that edge silenced for that table and you don't get to replace it with anything else.  Cost of doing something broken.

Also, GM's are generally empowered to say no to anything even if you build a character 'legally' because of that character being broken or something else that a GM doesn't like or which overpowers that character compared to other characters.  So with this set of edges, technically you could take those yes.  But be careful not to power game.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

I disagree with this ruling.  If one GM (or many) review something and say it is fine, why should a character lose power (or potentially be useless if the build centered on a chain starting from that) simply because one other GM decides he doesn't like it.

Either a character is legal or it isn't.  There is no other organized play setup where a character can be legal or illegal depending on GM whim.

I completely agree that these edges should be reviewed by at least one GM (or some other official person) but not whimsical altering of characters on a per table basis.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

You can disagree with it all you like but the reason for that ruling is simple.  When you are at a new table run by a different GM they are the one who has say at that table. They are the one who put the session together for you and will run for you and have balanced everything. Just because you convinced someone else to go along with something doesnt mean they are stuck with it.  Whenever something has a chance to be as overbalanced or overpowered as some of the things that we are discussing the person running the game gets to say no.  

And just because you did something at another table doesn't mean you can do it at the current table. Every GM is the god at their table and you don't get to argue with them over that fact. The GM's word goes for the table he/she is running and if they don't want to deal with something or if it is broken for them or overpowered etc... compared to what they are doing then they get to say no and they don't have to let you take 15-45 minutes replacing or reworking your character because you did something weird. 

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

One thing I've found useful for convention games with questionable edges is to have 2 character sheets.  One with the character as legally allowed by the rules, albeit with a "broken" edge or combo, and another without it.  In general I only play with a few GMs (Ruben, Mark, Howard, David) and they slap me if I get to big for my britches  :)  Oh, and BTW, yes the above combo of edges is borderline broken.

Dúnedhel Vala!

wilcoxon

That works fine for home games or if J&L was only ever played as long series of adventures run by the same GMs.  However, it is not.  It is played at conventions and online with things like Rangers at Large.  It is possible (but unlikely) that you could make it to legendary and never play more than 1 session with any given GM.  It is highly likely that one of those GMs would find a problem with any given character.

This sort of situation does not work and drives players away if they experience it (which is why no other living campaign has this ruling).  And if players are driven away from the living campaign, they tend to also be driven away from the game entirely.

Personally, if I played one of my characters that has been okayed by multiple GMs (including Howard for at least one of them) and the GM found a "problem", I would likely be frustrated and angry and strongly consider walking away from the game.  If it happened another time or two, I would strongly consider walking away from J&L (which would effectively drive me away from Shaintar at least for now because, as far as I know, there are no local groups playing Shaintar).

Anilar

I can understand your position Wilcoxon. But you don't need to read much into the Handbook of the Broken to understand there is some very powerful combination of edges. And with the many guidebooks that have come along too, those combinations are even greater, than when that thread was started.

Now these edges can be used in many ways, some ways where the objective is to make some interesting, fun, weird characters, where effectiveness is not the goal, but the roleplaying experience.

But some use them to make as powerful, crazy characters as possible. Not that means they aren't interesting and great roleplaying characters. But they can be very overpowered characters, compared to more classic built characters. 

One such character in a group of 4 to 5 players, can quickly destroy the challenges the GM have prepared, and it might be fun for the GM and the other group of players the first time. But it gets old fast. And then the GM need to take the hard choice, am I going to say no to one player, to secure the fun of the other players. Or am I going to make my challenges so they are a threat to that one character, but impossible to the other players.

I don't know your playstyle wilcoxon, but the GM don't say no, because you take the chain starting edges, it is the following choices that might be the problem. And the goal for all, should be fun for all, so if your in doubt about a character you wan't to bring to an event. If possible have a talk with the GM, well before the event, that will give him a chance to say, sure i will allow it. And then he can plan better challenges according, to what you bring.

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Caught between a rock and a crazy place. With all the edges one can stack together it becomes a quite an exercise to sort out which are broken or not. My rule of thumb tends to base it partially on what level the character is. Characters whom are Unleashed level { Heroic and Legendary} I plan accordingly knowing unless other settings that they will be stronger...however because I toned down my character once for becoming an absolute pain.

Unfortunately, with the gamer mentality even stronger via video games has made that I MUST WIN mentality stronger vs back in the day though many must remember our hobby started from a man who came from Wargaming.  Epic destiny is one to always be wary of...especially combinations into other races or shortcuts like Back to basics.  Concept is king..giving GMs more chances to give approval vs... I think that looks awesome just to forge the Ultimate killjoy.... [ Hates EarthWalker for all its cheapness]